Discussion:
[White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Wilco
2018-05-14 20:51:04 UTC
Permalink
*Hi everyone,Below the summary of the white paper we have created. We hope
you find it interesting and helpful in your work:*







*Without a shared testing perspective, achieving accurate test results for
compliance with WCAG 2.0 can be challenging and expensive. A common cause
for inconsistent accessibility results between experts is accessibility
testers doing their work with different goals in mind. Natural tension
exists between the goals of users, designers, developers, testers,
trainers, project managers, and executives. An unstated goal for testing
can be a major source of inconsistent results between tests.It is time to
stop the accessibility interpretation wars. There is no "one best way" of
interpreting accessibility standards. There are different interpretations,
each valid and useful in their own right. The Accessibility Peace Model
identifies the following key perspectives used for accessibility testing. -
Minimum - based on the normative text of the technical requirement. This
perspective often seeks low cost and quick solution to meet legal
requirements.- Optimized - based on the spirit and the intent of the
normative technical requirement, rather than just minimum compliance. This
is a pragmatic approach to sustainable universal design that balances equal
access, civil rights, and actual outcomes for users with disabilities with
what is technically possible with other requirements, (business) goals for
the product, and what is reasonable to achieve today. This perspective is
the most effective use of resources in the long run.- Ideal - based on a
human factors approach that extends beyond legal compliance and pragmatic
best practices. Focuses on quality of user experience for people with
disabilities and innovative breakthroughs that eliminate barriers once
considered impossible to solve. During initial phases, this perspective may
be expensive.By clearly defining the perspective your organization is using
for accessibility testing, your organization can save time and lower costs.
*

*Read the White Paper "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
(http://bit.ly/a11ypeace) <http://bit.ly/a11ypeace>"*

*Let's make a11y peace!*


*WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims*
CB Averitt
2018-05-15 04:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Love! Excellent!

On May 14, 2018, at 1:51 PM, Wilco <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone,
Below the summary of the white paper we have created. We hope you find it interesting and helpful in your work:

Without a shared testing perspective, achieving accurate test results for compliance with WCAG 2.0 can be challenging and expensive. A common cause for inconsistent accessibility results between experts is accessibility testers doing their work with different goals in mind. Natural tension exists between the goals of users, designers, developers, testers, trainers, project managers, and executives. An unstated goal for testing can be a major source of inconsistent results between tests.

It is time to stop the accessibility interpretation wars. There is no "one best way" of interpreting accessibility standards. There are different interpretations, each valid and useful in their own right. The Accessibility Peace Model identifies the following key perspectives used for accessibility testing.

Minimum - based on the normative text of the technical requirement. This perspective often seeks low cost and quick solution to meet legal requirements.
Optimized - based on the spirit and the intent of the normative technical requirement, rather than just minimum compliance. This is a pragmatic approach to sustainable universal design that balances equal access, civil rights, and actual outcomes for users with disabilities with what is technically possible with other requirements, (business) goals for the product, and what is reasonable to achieve today. This perspective is the most effective use of resources in the long run.
Ideal - based on a human factors approach that extends beyond legal compliance and pragmatic best practices. Focuses on quality of user experience for people with disabilities and innovative breakthroughs that eliminate barriers once considered impossible to solve. During initial phases, this perspective may be expensive.

By clearly defining the perspective your organization is using for accessibility testing, your organization can save time and lower costs.

Read the White Paper "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem (http://bit.ly/a11ypeace) <http://bit.ly/a11ypeace>"

Let's make a11y peace!


WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Tim Harshbarger
2018-05-15 12:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.

Thanks!
Tim


From: Wilco [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 3:51 PM
To: w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Cc: Glenda Sims <***@gmail.com>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem


Hi everyone,

Below the summary of the white paper we have created. We hope you find it interesting and helpful in your work:



Without a shared testing perspective, achieving accurate test results for compliance with WCAG 2.0 can be challenging and expensive. A common cause for inconsistent accessibility results between experts is accessibility testers doing their work with different goals in mind. Natural tension exists between the goals of users, designers, developers, testers, trainers, project managers, and executives. An unstated goal for testing can be a major source of inconsistent results between tests.


It is time to stop the accessibility interpretation wars. There is no "one best way" of interpreting accessibility standards. There are different interpretations, each valid and useful in their own right. The Accessibility Peace Model identifies the following key perspectives used for accessibility testing.


· Minimum - based on the normative text of the technical requirement. This perspective often seeks low cost and quick solution to meet legal requirements.

· Optimized - based on the spirit and the intent of the normative technical requirement, rather than just minimum compliance. This is a pragmatic approach to sustainable universal design that balances equal access, civil rights, and actual outcomes for users with disabilities with what is technically possible with other requirements, (business) goals for the product, and what is reasonable to achieve today. This perspective is the most effective use of resources in the long run.

· Ideal - based on a human factors approach that extends beyond legal compliance and pragmatic best practices. Focuses on quality of user experience for people with disabilities and innovative breakthroughs that eliminate barriers once considered impossible to solve. During initial phases, this perspective may be expensive.

By clearly defining the perspective your organization is using for accessibility testing, your organization can save time and lower costs.

Read the White Paper "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem (http://bit.ly/a11ypeace)<http://bit.ly/a11ypeace>"

Let's make a11y peace!


WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Glenda Sims
2018-05-15 16:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tim,

I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.

Let me know if you didn't receive it.

Best,
Glenda

*glenda sims* <***@deque.com>, cpacc
<http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/certification> | team a11y lead
| 512.963.3773

deque systems <http://www.deque.com> accessibility for good

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Tim Harshbarger <
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some other
format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading the
document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
Thanks!
Tim
*Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 3:51 PM
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
Hi everyone,
Below the summary of the white paper we have created. We hope you find it
Without a shared testing perspective, achieving accurate test results for
compliance with WCAG 2.0 can be challenging and expensive. A common cause
for inconsistent accessibility results between experts is accessibility
testers doing their work with different goals in mind. Natural tension
exists between the goals of users, designers, developers, testers,
trainers, project managers, and executives. An unstated goal for testing
can be a major source of inconsistent results between tests.
It is time to stop the accessibility interpretation wars. There is no "one
best way" of interpreting accessibility standards. There are different
interpretations, each valid and useful in their own right. The
Accessibility Peace Model identifies the following key perspectives used
for accessibility testing.
· *Minimum -* based on the normative text of the technical
requirement. This perspective often seeks low cost and quick solution to
meet legal requirements.
· *Optimized -* based on the spirit and the intent of the normative
technical requirement, rather than just minimum compliance. This is a
pragmatic approach to sustainable universal design that balances equal
access, civil rights, and actual outcomes for users with disabilities with
what is technically possible with other requirements, (business) goals for
the product, and what is reasonable to achieve today. This perspective is
the most effective use of resources in the long run.
· *Ideal -* based on a human factors approach that extends beyond
legal compliance and pragmatic best practices. Focuses on quality of user
experience for people with disabilities and innovative breakthroughs that
eliminate barriers once considered impossible to solve. During initial
phases, this perspective may be expensive.
By clearly defining the perspective your organization is using for
accessibility testing, your organization can save time and lower costs.
Read the White Paper "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
(http://bit.ly/a11ypeace) <http://bit.ly/a11ypeace>"
Let's make a11y peace!
WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Felix Miata
2018-05-15 17:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some other
format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading the
document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in
traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Tim Harshbarger
2018-05-15 19:05:46 UTC
Permalink
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)

Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix Miata [mailto:***@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
To: w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some other
format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading the
document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in
traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Felix Miata
2018-05-15 19:15:59 UTC
Permalink
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently.
Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a
format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts
our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
I don't characterize Google Docs as usable.
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Russell, Jon (CTR)
2018-05-15 19:27:01 UTC
Permalink
Indeed they did.

The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.

Not sure what this comment is coming from in regard to the white paper not being available as a web document:

"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"

Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace

-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims

Thanks,

Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
***@associates.hq.dhs.gov

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Harshbarger <***@statefarm.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
To: Felix Miata <***@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem

I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)

Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix Miata [mailto:***@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
To: w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Frank M. Palinkas
2018-05-15 19:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Glenda and Jon. It is much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Senior Technical Writer
Betcade, LLC
Mobile: +1 650 248 5315
Web page: https://github.com/fmpalinkas/web-accessibility-tutorials/wiki

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Russell, Jon (CTR) <
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
Not sure what this comment is coming from in regard to the white paper not
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web
documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation
Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail
differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made
available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my
company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word
document.
Post by Glenda Sims
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web
documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get
wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Pyatt, Elizabeth J
2018-05-15 19:58:20 UTC
Permalink
FWIW - I think the objection from Felix Miata is that the document is embedded in a Google Doc.

Unfortunately not everyone with a screen reader has found Google Docs a friendly environment. That has been the case with some of my colleagues using a screen reader.

Google may provide updated documentation for screen reader support.

Elizabeth
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fa11ypeace&data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7Cb1cd353ce5dd471792e208d5ba9b6fa0%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C636620099117637515&sdata=h4%2FnjG3trGdSxowlwf22yZNL%2FA3HdbL6nlHCM1qZY80%3D&reserved=0
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffm.no-ip.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7Cb1cd353ce5dd471792e208d5ba9b6fa0%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C636620099117637515&sdata=qyMonvgmc4EoIOqhWs%2FGFFuF7pmjz5vCUwo4ctV6WoY%3D&reserved=0
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Accessibility IT Consultant
Teaching and Learning with Technology
Penn State University
***@psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office)

The 300 Building, 112
304 West College Avenue
University Park, PA 1680
Karen Lewellen
2018-05-15 20:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Well, yes that is part of the problem.
I might add the need to have a google account might be part of it as well.
Might I also add that access means more than screen readers?
That a person may be managing more than one kind of print disability, or
other challenge?
Should not an individual be able to reach your content using the best
method for them, not as defined by you?
Should not there be more than one path to the information in the first
place?
Just a thought,
Post by Pyatt, Elizabeth J
FWIW - I think the objection from Felix Miata is that the document is embedded in a Google Doc.
Unfortunately not everyone with a screen reader has found Google Docs a friendly environment. That has been the case with some of my colleagues using a screen reader.
Google may provide updated documentation for screen reader support.
Elizabeth
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fa11ypeace&data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7Cb1cd353ce5dd471792e208d5ba9b6fa0%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C636620099117637515&sdata=h4%2FnjG3trGdSxowlwf22yZNL%2FA3HdbL6nlHCM1qZY80%3D&reserved=0
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffm.no-ip.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7Cb1cd353ce5dd471792e208d5ba9b6fa0%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C636620099117637515&sdata=qyMonvgmc4EoIOqhWs%2FGFFuF7pmjz5vCUwo4ctV6WoY%3D&reserved=0
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Accessibility IT Consultant
Teaching and Learning with Technology
Penn State University
The 300 Building, 112
304 West College Avenue
University Park, PA 16802
http://accessibility.psu.edu
Karen Lewellen
2018-05-15 20:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where google
informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a variety
of methods to reach information, why use one that requires layers to
access?
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Russell, Jon (CTR)
2018-05-15 20:20:44 UTC
Permalink
I think Mr. Urban hit the nail on the head -- even when making documents accessible on the web:

***** No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*. *****

-----

Good morning!

I had to comment on this work. This is, I hope, a start to a very important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.

I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of these wars. Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best practice. And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”. No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*.

We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and that there are tradeoffs. The key is to identify the principle of accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK. Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table. We all have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve every day.

Again, well done, to start the conversation. Cheers for helping mark out the common ground.

Regards,
Mark D. Urban
CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO)
Office of the Chief Operating Officer (OCOO)
***@CDC.gov | 919-541-0562 office

-----

Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
***@associates.hq.dhs.gov


-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Lewellen <***@shellworld.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:15 PM
To: Russell, Jon (CTR) <***@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
Cc: Tim Harshbarger <***@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata <***@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem

Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where google informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a variety
of methods to reach information, why use one that requires layers to
access?
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Karen Lewellen
2018-05-15 20:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Oh brilliantly said!
I wonder, if part of the feeling mad comes from the situation, that in so
many ways access begins and ends with the individual, but those in
policy seats feel they must project in a general way?
Personally I feel the more common ground one seeks, and I mean
communicating from common frames of reference, perhaps the greater
progress....but that is me.
Speaking for myself I fail to understand how generalizations, the
assumption that all those sharing a label are interchangeable in how they
access technology serves the greater society if that makes sense.
You are not living that individuals experience, but you likely share a
frame of reference that might lead to a more positive outcome.
"you may say that I'm a dreamer.."
John Lenon
Kare
***** No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*. *****
-----
Good morning!
I had to comment on this work. This is, I hope, a start to a very important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.
I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of these wars. Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best practice. And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”. No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*.
We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and that there are tradeoffs. The key is to identify the principle of accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK. Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table. We all have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve every day.
Again, well done, to start the conversation. Cheers for helping mark out the common ground.
Regards,
Mark D. Urban
CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO)
Office of the Chief Operating Officer (OCOO)
-----
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where google informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a variety
of methods to reach information, why use one that requires layers to
access?
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail differently. Personally I think that the document is already being made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in reading
the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Russell, Jon (CTR)
2018-05-15 20:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Good point.

I'm pretty sure WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims were seeking common ground when posting on google docs -- since google is pretty universal.

Thanks,

Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
***@associates.hq.dhs.gov


-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Lewellen <***@shellworld.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:30 PM
To: Russell, Jon (CTR) <***@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
Cc: Tim Harshbarger <***@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata <***@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem

Oh brilliantly said!
I wonder, if part of the feeling mad comes from the situation, that in so
many ways access begins and ends with the individual, but those in
policy seats feel they must project in a general way?
Personally I feel the more common ground one seeks, and I mean communicating from common frames of reference, perhaps the greater progress....but that is me.
Speaking for myself I fail to understand how generalizations, the assumption that all those sharing a label are interchangeable in how they access technology serves the greater society if that makes sense.
You are not living that individuals experience, but you likely share a frame of reference that might lead to a more positive outcome.
"you may say that I'm a dreamer.."
John Lenon
Kare
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
***** No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise
leaves everyone mad”*. *****
-----
Good morning!
I had to comment on this work. This is, I hope, a start to a very important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.
I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of these wars. Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best practice. And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”. No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*.
We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and that there are tradeoffs. The key is to identify the principle of accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK. Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table. We all have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve every day.
Again, well done, to start the conversation. Cheers for helping mark out the common ground.
Regards,
Mark D. Urban
CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO) Office of the Chief
-----
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where google informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a variety
of methods to reach information, why use one that requires layers to
access?
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The
Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail
differently. Personally I think that the document is already being
made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into
is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google
Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in
reading the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get
wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Karen Lewellen
2018-05-15 20:43:04 UTC
Permalink
well google is yes, you can search it even in html, no account required.
However google services like documents and hangouts etc., are not the
same as google so to speak. More doors to dance through, which is why
personally there should be more than one path to information.
I respect their motive, after all it is easy to feel everyone uses a
computer as they might. Still the P in pc stands for personal.
Cheers,
Kare
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Good point.
I'm pretty sure WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims were seeking common ground when posting on google docs -- since google is pretty universal.
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Oh brilliantly said!
I wonder, if part of the feeling mad comes from the situation, that in so
many ways access begins and ends with the individual, but those in
policy seats feel they must project in a general way?
Personally I feel the more common ground one seeks, and I mean communicating from common frames of reference, perhaps the greater progress....but that is me.
Speaking for myself I fail to understand how generalizations, the assumption that all those sharing a label are interchangeable in how they access technology serves the greater society if that makes sense.
You are not living that individuals experience, but you likely share a frame of reference that might lead to a more positive outcome.
"you may say that I'm a dreamer.."
John Lenon
Kare
***** No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise
leaves everyone mad”*. *****
-----
Good morning!
I had to comment on this work. This is, I hope, a start to a very important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.
I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of these wars. Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best practice. And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”. No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*.
We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and that there are tradeoffs. The key is to identify the principle of accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK. Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table. We all have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve every day.
Again, well done, to start the conversation. Cheers for helping mark out the common ground.
Regards,
Mark D. Urban
CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO) Office of the Chief
-----
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where google informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a variety
of methods to reach information, why use one that requires layers to
access?
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The
Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail
differently. Personally I think that the document is already being
made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran into
is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like Google
Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in
reading the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get
wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Russell, Jon (CTR)
2018-05-16 12:46:14 UTC
Permalink
<<google docs as common ground>>

For future reference, what would be a more superior common ground, other than google docs, for posting accessibility documents, to mitigate the current accessibility issue?

Thanks,

Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122
DHS NPPD IP IICD Test & Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
***@associates.hq.dhs.gov

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Lewellen <***@shellworld.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:43 PM
To: Russell, Jon (CTR) <***@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
Cc: Tim Harshbarger <***@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata <***@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem

well google is yes, you can search it even in html, no account required.
However google services like documents and hangouts etc., are not the same as google so to speak. More doors to dance through, which is why personally there should be more than one path to information.
I respect their motive, after all it is easy to feel everyone uses a computer as they might. Still the P in pc stands for personal.
Cheers,
Kare
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Good point.
I'm pretty sure WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims were seeking common ground when posting on google docs -- since google is pretty universal.
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
Oh brilliantly said!
I wonder, if part of the feeling mad comes from the situation, that in so
many ways access begins and ends with the individual, but those in
policy seats feel they must project in a general way?
Personally I feel the more common ground one seeks, and I mean communicating from common frames of reference, perhaps the greater progress....but that is me.
Speaking for myself I fail to understand how generalizations, the assumption that all those sharing a label are interchangeable in how they access technology serves the greater society if that makes sense.
You are not living that individuals experience, but you likely share a frame of reference that might lead to a more positive outcome.
"you may say that I'm a dreamer.."
John Lenon
Kare
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
***** No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise
leaves everyone mad”*. *****
-----
Good morning!
I had to comment on this work. This is, I hope, a start to a very important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.
I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of these wars. Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best practice. And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”. No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*.
We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and that there are tradeoffs. The key is to identify the principle of accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK. Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table. We all have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve every day.
Again, well done, to start the conversation. Cheers for helping mark out the common ground.
Regards,
Mark D. Urban
CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO) Office of the Chief
-----
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The
Accessibility Interpretation Problem
Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where google informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a variety
of methods to reach information, why use one that requires layers to
access?
Post by Russell, Jon (CTR)
Indeed they did.
The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to the white paper.
"Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?"
Read the White Paper: "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem" >>> http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
-- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Thanks,
Jon Russell
Software Tester
Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
Evaluation (T&E)
1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
Desk: 703-235-9306
Mobile: 202-744-8333
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The
Accessibility Interpretation Problem
I apologize. I probably should have worded my original e-mail
differently. Personally I think that the document is already being
made available in a format usable on the web. The problem I ran
into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like
Google
Docs.)
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
Interpretation Problem
Post by Glenda Sims
Post by Tim Harshbarger
Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
other format or location—like a web site? I am interested in
reading the document, but our company does not allow us to access Google Docs.
+ + +
Post by Glenda Sims
I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word document.
In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web documents in traditional web document format?
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get
wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.
Urban, Mark (CDC/OCOO/OCIO/ITSO)
2018-05-15 12:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Good morning!

I had to comment on this work. This is, I hope, a start to a very important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.

I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of these wars. Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best practice. And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”. No matter what I answer, the result is “A good compromise leaves everyone mad”*.

We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and that there are tradeoffs. The key is to identify the principle of accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK. Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table. We all have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve every day.

Again, well done, to start the conversation. Cheers for helping mark out the common ground.

Regards,
Mark D. Urban
CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO)
Office of the Chief Operating Officer (OCOO)
***@CDC.gov<mailto:***@CDC.gov> | 919-541-0562 office
[cid:***@01D39E67.CE8948C0]

From: Wilco <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 4:51 PM
To: w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Cc: Glenda Sims <***@gmail.com>
Subject: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem


Hi everyone,

Below the summary of the white paper we have created. We hope you find it interesting and helpful in your work:



Without a shared testing perspective, achieving accurate test results for compliance with WCAG 2.0 can be challenging and expensive. A common cause for inconsistent accessibility results between experts is accessibility testers doing their work with different goals in mind. Natural tension exists between the goals of users, designers, developers, testers, trainers, project managers, and executives. An unstated goal for testing can be a major source of inconsistent results between tests.


It is time to stop the accessibility interpretation wars. There is no "one best way" of interpreting accessibility standards. There are different interpretations, each valid and useful in their own right. The Accessibility Peace Model identifies the following key perspectives used for accessibility testing.


· Minimum - based on the normative text of the technical requirement. This perspective often seeks low cost and quick solution to meet legal requirements.

· Optimized - based on the spirit and the intent of the normative technical requirement, rather than just minimum compliance. This is a pragmatic approach to sustainable universal design that balances equal access, civil rights, and actual outcomes for users with disabilities with what is technically possible with other requirements, (business) goals for the product, and what is reasonable to achieve today. This perspective is the most effective use of resources in the long run.

· Ideal - based on a human factors approach that extends beyond legal compliance and pragmatic best practices. Focuses on quality of user experience for people with disabilities and innovative breakthroughs that eliminate barriers once considered impossible to solve. During initial phases, this perspective may be expensive.

By clearly defining the perspective your organization is using for accessibility testing, your organization can save time and lower costs.

Read the White Paper "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem (http://bit.ly/a11ypeace)<http://bit.ly/a11ypeace>"

Let's make a11y peace!


WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Phill Jenkins
2018-05-15 16:08:26 UTC
Permalink
I would like to challenge the authors (and all of us so called "subject
matter experts" for that matter) to do a significant edit to the white
paper (and our own writing and speech) and try to be more specific by
replacing most every instance of the term "accessibility testing" and
replace it with a term that is more specific or more defined that does NOT
itself use either "testing" or the term "accessibility". I believe (I
think with the authors) that the term "accessibility testing" is broad
and is interpreted in different ways *because* we and they are almost
always talking about different things when we and they use the same term.
The paper goes into detail on this, but I found it confusing itself using
the same term when in fact it meant something different in places. For
example, at times the term "accessibility testing" could often be replaced
with a more precise term or phrase such as:
"validating conformance to WCAG 2.0",
or "assessing web site compatibility with users who have
disabilities and use assistive technology",
or "researching best practices", etc.
My point is that we almost all agree that these three (3) examples are
interpreted as 3 different activities; but if/when the term "
accessibility testing" is used instead, each of us *will* have a different
interpretation of what the activity is. I agree with the authors that
there are different goals, but not necessarily at the organization level,
but at the activity level. And yes most activities are done by different
groups or disciplines (e.g. researchers, designers, developers, testers,
compliance, legal, procurement, etc.) in an organization. For example, I
view a group of designers as in an organization, not an organization of
designers in and of themselves. So I agree it is up to us SME's to use
better terms when describing activities and goals to improve
communications and understanding.

I also want to advocate for the correct use of WCAG along with UAAG and
user education and settings. I know it makes it more complicated to bring
in the other components and stakeholders described in the "essential
components" of web accessibility, but it is fundamental that we SME get it
right and advocate for a more comprehensive and joint understanding.

Please read: https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/components/

oh, and for the record, I still do not like the use of "a11y", "ally", or
any other variable of the word "accessibility", and I prefer "digital
accessibility" over similar terms.
___________
Regards,
Phill Jenkins
Check out the new system for requesting an IBM product Accessibility
Conformance Report VPAT® at able.ibm.com/request
Senior Engineer & Accessibility Executive
IBM Research Accessibility



From: Wilco <***@gmail.com>
To: w3c-wai-***@w3.org
Cc: Glenda Sims <***@gmail.com>
Date: 05/14/2018 04:06 PM
Subject: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation
Problem



Hi everyone,
Below the summary of the white paper we have created. We hope you find it
interesting and helpful in your work:

Without a shared testing perspective, achieving accurate test results for
compliance with WCAG 2.0 can be challenging and expensive. A common cause
for inconsistent accessibility results between experts is accessibility
testers doing their work with different goals in mind. Natural tension
exists between the goals of users, designers, developers, testers,
trainers, project managers, and executives. An unstated goal for testing
can be a major source of inconsistent results between tests.

It is time to stop the accessibility interpretation wars. There is no "one
best way" of interpreting accessibility standards. There are different
interpretations, each valid and useful in their own right. The
Accessibility Peace Model identifies the following key perspectives used
for accessibility testing.

Minimum - based on the normative text of the technical requirement. This
perspective often seeks low cost and quick solution to meet legal
requirements.
Optimized - based on the spirit and the intent of the normative technical
requirement, rather than just minimum compliance. This is a pragmatic
approach to sustainable universal design that balances equal access, civil
rights, and actual outcomes for users with disabilities with what is
technically possible with other requirements, (business) goals for the
product, and what is reasonable to achieve today. This perspective is the
most effective use of resources in the long run.
Ideal - based on a human factors approach that extends beyond legal
compliance and pragmatic best practices. Focuses on quality of user
experience for people with disabilities and innovative breakthroughs that
eliminate barriers once considered impossible to solve. During initial
phases, this perspective may be expensive.

By clearly defining the perspective your organization is using for
accessibility testing, your organization can save time and lower costs.

Read the White Paper "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem
(http://bit.ly/a11ypeace)"

Let's make a11y peace!


WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
Wilco Fiers
2018-05-23 10:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for your in depth analyses. I agree with your suggestion to
reevaluate the idea of technology agnostic. The problem of that has always
been we've been catering to the lowest common denominator. When WCAG 2.0
came out we also sort of all collectively decided to ignore that Flash has
next to no taxonomy - The only thing it knew of widgets was buttons and
links. We got around that by putting "markup languages" into some SCs, but
it's not great.

Some of the ideas that are going into Silver support this. With WCAG 2.1
we've done the same thing with the single key shortcuts. That's clearly a
technical limitation of Dragon. That should not have been made the problem
of a million web developers in my opinion.


Regarding ambiguity: In the ACT Rules Format we have actually broken this
problem into two parts. Whether or not a rule is applicable has to be
unambiguous, but the actual requirement is required to ambiguous, provided
there aren't obvious multiple viable interpretations, and it doesn't use
subjective terms such as "good", "clear". I think this is helping us define
much more reliable test procedures than we've had for WCAG 2.0 before.

Wilco
Hi Glenda and Wilco,
Here are the rest of my thoughts.
A11y Wars: Review 2
Before starting I would like to repeat my appreciation of this analysis.
Superb work!
Ideal
When we speak of ideal we should be sure that it is ideal. The
intervention must be proven to be effective, and, demonstrated to be
achievable. Enlargement to 400% with word wrapping is not an ideal for
print on paper because it is not possible.
One ideal that COGA and LVTF put forward in the 2.1 dialogue was
personalization. Personalization is an ideal because it is demonstratively
effective. It can also be achieved with the addition of semantic
information to content and browser extensions that interpret the new
semantics. It will be interesting to identify other ideals as we proceed.
Personalization is an ideal now, but it has extremely high priority.
Personalization is necessary for people with cognitive and low vision
disabilities to achieve literacy.
Priority
Access to literacy is high priority. Also, when a person is taking an
examination of proficiency, the need for unambiguously readable content is
essential to fair assessment. Access to commerce is also critical, as well
as technology that is necessary for employment. If a guideline that claims
accessibility does not support life functions at this priority level, one
can hardly call it accessible.
WCAG Assumptions Technology Agnostic
This goal is not an ideal because it is unattainable. People develop
technology to meet needs that are not met by other technology. Almost by
definition, this will enhance some capabilities and limit others. If we
limit our accessibility ideal to those that do not conflict with the
limitations of every technology, we will wind up with accessibility
guidelines that do not do enough to attain basic life priorities.
Let us consider the difference between PDF and HTML / CSS / JavaScript.
Both technologies support print communication, but PDF focuses on
preserving visual presentation across diverse platforms, and HTML / CSS /
JavaScript focus on conveying content across diverse platforms with some
flexibility in visual presentation. Is it possible to apply the same
personalization rules for visual content to PDF and HTML / CSS / JavaScript?
Is it possible to do the same for mobile phones and desktop computers?
Technology agnosticism needs reexamination because ideals that can be met
on one technology may be impossible on another. Guideline ideals need to
adapt to variable capabilities of technology so that user priorities can be
met.
Ambiguity
I had a very good friend, Alby Burke. He was a constitutional historian.
When WCAG 2.0 was about to be released, I told Alby about our goal of
unambiguous criteria. He laughed at me. Then Alby explained that law
frequently does not fits some real situations. Law must design ways to
interpret the necessary ambiguity that will occur in real cases. The
Understanding documents are examples of methods to interpret these real
ambiguities. The A11y Wars paper is another. What is certain is that we
will have ambiguity. All we can do is identify when we are at that place in
a given case, and make the best guess we can from our experienced. There
will always be disagreement because the only certainty is that ambiguity
will always occur.
This impacts the notion of testability and automated testing. It would be
great to have everything testable and even better automated, but this is
always impossible in ambiguous cases. Not only are there cases that cannot
be resolved mechanically, there are cases that cannot be resolved by any
logical process. Guidelines like the A11y Wars papers help us resolve these
issues along agreed upon lines of analysis.
When Alby laughed at me, I was hurt. It was 2008 and we had worked so long
to get this right. Looking back, I am grateful for the honesty. Alby was
not a policy writer, he was a tester of actual cases against the letter of
the law. One of the big advances in developing accessibility guidelines is
our awareness that different roles in the accessibility process will frame
the guidelines differently. What is clear to the AGWG will be opaque or
even ambiguous to a practitioner.
Congratulations Again, Wayne
Hi Glenda & Wilco,
Great paper, I was nodding vigorously in several places :-)
It's a good time to make these points, as it mixes well with some
thoughts I've had about Silver & the direction guidelines &
conformance could go in future.
In some ways this builds on the levels A / AA / AAA in WCAG 2.x, so if
in Silver those levels were removed, I don't think using
minimum/optimised/idealised would work without the WCAG levels in
place as well? Unless the AAA type criteria were aligned with
'idealised'?
Analysis of barriers by their impact on the user-journey.
When talking to clients, a key aspect of prioritisation for
accessibility fixes is what impact that issue (barrier) has on the
user-journey of the site.
- Missing alt text on a partner logo in the footer of a website, which
is unlikely to be noticed by any real user, and certainly doesn't
impact their journey.
- A keyboard in-accessible 'next' button on a form every user must
fill in to proceed.
Both are level A fails, but the priority of the two should be very
different.
At least for organisations that optimise their user-journeys for their
target users, this type of analysis is fairly straightforward and (at
optimised & idealised levels) maps well to whether people will
struggle.
Kind regards,
-Alastair
--
*Wilco Fiers*
Senior Accessibility Engineer - Co-facilitator WCAG-ACT - Chair Auto-WCAG
Alastair Campbell
2018-05-25 12:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, realised I wasn't clear:

The top layer (possibly two) that I outlined should be technology
agnostic, or at least apply across platforms & technologies. However,
the tech-specific layer could have many items for one technology, and
some or none for others where it does not apply. The last layer would
probably not be directly visible from the general guidelines as it is
aimed specifically at developers and tool-makers

If a particular technology cannot fulfil the basic functional (user)
requirements, that is an issue with using (or relying) on that
technology. But below that point the requirements could diverge for
different technologies.

-Alastair

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